John Green: Author of Paper Towns, An Abundance of Katherines and Looking for Alaska
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On Teens Reading Critically

(Spoiler Alert)

I found the long question quoted below among the comments on my last post. I can't be sure it was written by a teenager (unless, Dido, you identify yourself). But I suspect it was.

(A side note addressed to adults: I would argue that when we think about teens as readers, we need to stop thinking about the teens we know. Like, around us, teens can be awkward and intellectually unimpressive. But they often aren't showing us their best selves, precisely because they feel the intellectual distance between us and them. I'd argue that the ONLY way to bridge that distance is to deny its existence. I'm not arguing that all teenagers are like Dido. I'm just arguing that most can be like him/her. I'd also argue, slightly off-topic, that of course you don't need to be able to connect Paper Towns--or any book--to Moby Dick or Orpheus or Gatsby or whatever in order for a book to be intellectually rewarding. That these connections exist does not make a novel inaccessible, except in the case of outlandishly referential work like, say, Finnegan's Wake. But okay, let's listen to Dido and be reminded that people like him/her exist:)

"Somewhere down along the very long list of things I love about the book is the fact that Q reads Ovid. I take Latin, and though I feel guilty about not knowing a modern language yet I love the language and literature and the whole idea of knowledge for its own sake (because everyone thinks that reading ancient poetry is impractical). Did you take Latin? Anyway, this seems very irrelevant but it's partly why I'm asking this question.

"I was so blown away by Paper Towns I reread it right away. And the second time, I was really struck by the scene where Margo gets bit by the snake. It reminded me of the story of Orpheus and Eurydice, which I especially love Rilke's version of. I realized that the whole book could be loosely seen as within that framework. She is taken from him - not through fate but through her own will - just when they begin to redevelop some sort of a relationship. And she is, from his point of view, lost in the underworld; he actually thinks she is dead. She has gone to the world of the paper towns, and he is willing to follow her despite all the dangers and obstacles. The idea of comparing Q to Orpheus is laughable in light of his terrible tone-deafness, but he does seem to see Margo at first as the helpless, beautiful, one-dimensional Eurydice - a classic damsel-in-distress. But she is an actual person who makes her own decisions, and despite the fact that Q follows her into her new world he is unable to bring her back. Because, like Orpheus, he looks at her - because instead of focusing simply on his own world, the outside world he lives in, he looks at her. And he sees her. And Margo never needed saving, not even from the snake. But the ending had the same bittersweetness as the end of Orpheus; she might have come with him, or he might have stayed, but they must go in separate directions. Just as Orpheus gives up a woman he though he owned, Q gives up all the images he attached to Margo. And she is free. In a way the snake incident, which seems so random at the time, foreshadows all of this, shows that their relationship can't last. At least this way my thinking.

"So my question, more simply is: was the snake a deliberate allusion to the story of Orpheus and Eurydice?"

Yes. I mean, of course the moment with the snake is also trying to play with the oldest serpent, that one in Genesis. But yeah. Yeah. Nice reading, kid.

27 Comments:

At December 27, 2008 , Blogger Diana said...

Wow... when I saw Q reading Ovid I thought it was a sort of allusion to Aeneid (admittedly, the only Ovid I've read). I saw Margo as Rome that Q had this great duty to go find and construct. Margo had been so wrongly constructed in his and everyone else's mind that he had to go build the real woman that was Margo in order to find her. All of the things at home- Radar, Ben, his parents, graduation, etc- were things that Q had to put aside because of his duty to fulfill his quest for the real Margo Roth Spegleman. Admittedly, the whole thing falls apart when Q realizes that you can never really fully accurately construct someone in your mind, but it was the best I had, Ovid-wise.
The book still spoke to me in magnificent ways.


Also, I lent my copy to my mom who liked the book a lot but said that Margo was just super flaky. At first I sort of rolled my eyes and thought she didn't get it and was one of those people who was wrongly imagining Margo, but I'm starting to wonder if you intentionally made her a little bit of a flake and pretty unreasonable with her expectations in order to challenge her perceived perfection. Did you create a flaky person or did you create a person who was trying to take care of herself but just didn't really know how to do that?
(sorry, I know it's not as good as Dido's but I was very curious)

 
At December 27, 2008 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think (and this could be another wrong imagining, but hey, isn't that what it's all about) that Margo, like many high school girls, puts on a facade of shallowness that allows her to blend in. I don't think it's entirely effective, since her uniqueness is clear (at least to Q), but it does give the impression of flakiness.

I don't spend a lot of time with other teenagers...when I was younger ("younger" being 12, 13, 14) it was a conscious choice to not do so, because I was frustrated with their inability to see past my geeky exterior and I decided not to care. I kind of regret that now, because now that we're all in late high school and either I'm more maintstream or we're both more open. I'm finding that the people who put on the flaky exterior are often just as smart and interesting to talk to. They just have the ability to disguise their brilliance in order to fit in.

I think it's sad that they, like Margo, feel the need to do so. I have a nagging feeling that in hiding behind my books and my glasses I missed out on opportunities to meet cool people.

This is all just a long-winded, self-focused way to say, I don't think Margo is flaky. I think Margo has shaped herself into the person she's become to protect herself from other people.

(but obviously I'm not John so I could be wrong.)

 
At December 27, 2008 , Blogger Diana said...

Good point, but I don't know if Margo's exterior really protected her at all. Perhaps if she had been an easier daughter to parent and a more oopen friend she would have been less likely to be failed (although she would also be less Margo).

Also, I was thinking as I worked out today about the garter snake symbolizing the first snake (Satan).
I know that John is fairly religious-ish and wondered about this. At first I wondered if John was trying to say that the devil is only as dangerous as we imagine him to be (Q and Margo lost more time trying to get the nonexistent venom out than the snake bite would have cost them) or that the devil is not at all dangerous, just our imagination of it.
Then I was thinking some more about it and wondered if the devil was dangerous becuase of its mystery, the snake bite only a threat until we learn that the snake is not poisoned. The power in mystery theory fits nicely with the "danger in imagining things as they are not" theme, but for some reason I want it to mean something more...
I'm pretty new to this reading for deeper meaning stuff!


As a sidenote, I realize that Ovid did not write "The Aeneid", Virgil did. But to my credit, you have to translate them both in Latin class.

 
At December 27, 2008 , Blogger Anna Swenson said...

Congratulations, Dido! You give teenagers everywhere a better chance at being realistically understood. I hope I'll someday be able to catch allusions like that as well as you.

Anna

 
At December 27, 2008 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I always sort of liked the fact that some adults think teenagers fools. Like in Alaska the line about adults "forget that when they get older". It's sort of a diffrent language, that some people never forget.
This probably doesn't make sense at all, but hey, this is a secret language of sorts.

 
At December 27, 2008 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow. I must say that while I am a young reader, I am no longer a teen, and it really upsets me that I can't read so deeply into literature. I wish I had a better mind for symbolism, being a religion major, by I have a very literal, scientific mind. I know that by not looking deeper, I am missing SO MUCH in my precious Bible. I really appreciate hearing other people's comments on this type of book, b/c I myself just can't see it on my own. I agree with John. Yeah. Nice reading, kid.

 
At December 27, 2008 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow. I'm blown away by both Dido's and Diana's takes on Ovid here. And thinking that I need to go back and read me some Ovid, pronto.

Teens are way smarter and more creative than many of us adults give them credit for. That's all I'm saying.

 
At December 27, 2008 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow. I feel really dumb. I would never be able to do that.

Maybe not all young adults are as smart as you give them credit for. Maybe there are those, like me, who act dumb in front of their elders because it's easier to set the bar low.

 
At December 27, 2008 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

...Or maybe you ARE smart, but your teachers and peers have never given you the chance to find out. ;)

[/comes from a nontraditional schooling background]

 
At December 27, 2008 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Learning, that is what I'm doing.
I could never pick out something like what Dido did, well at least this point in my adolescence I couldn't. Anyhootie, this is why I love this blog//nerdfighers, they(it) makes me want to go back to a lot of the books Ive read and look deeper in to it.

 
At December 27, 2008 , Blogger Diana said...

I could never read with depth until I started listening to John Green. So much for adequate English education...
As another side note, the word verification thing I had to type is was "scralod" which I define as "a person who seeks deep meaning in great literature."

 
At December 27, 2008 , Blogger valerie2776 said...

Over the past few months, after reading Catcher and then everything with Paper Towns, I think I've grown a ton in the way of critical thinking and analyzing and being more interested in/appreciative of books' themes and symbolism and such. I mean, I'm not that great at finding the stuff on my own, but I've definitely come to value it a whole lot more. So thank you, John, and Nerdfighters, and people who care about books.

 
At December 28, 2008 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sometimes I feel like I'm more critical about the writing - word choice, sentence structure, etc - than I am about the content.

Which isn't really a good thing. :)

 
At December 28, 2008 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

This has stunned me. I mean, really.

 
At December 28, 2008 , Blogger lnewport said...

And I thought I was a critical reader.

Good job, Dido. I'm stunned.

 
At December 29, 2008 , Blogger Laura said...

Completely unrelated:
Could today's XKCD be inspired by An Abundance of Katherines? Or does Colin have a soulmate? http://xkcd.com/523/

 
At December 29, 2008 , Blogger Tobias said...

It would be quite entertaining if Dido turned out to be some 90 year old man. Unlikely, but entertaining.

Now about Paper Towns.
I only finished the book today (started reading it 3 days ago) and I must say I feel ambivalent about it.

The things I liked:
I liked the general story. I liked most of the character (especially Ben and Radar, despite their overwhelming straightness). I liked the use of the Omnictionary (but more about that in the not-liking-section). I liked how you made me want to read further (while sometimes I get bored halfway through a book).

The things I did not like:
Quintin. I like some things about him, but quite often I found myself thinking: "get a fucking grip!". The Whitman poems became tiring after a while (but I can understand why you put it in the book). And to me it seems just a bit too convenient that Quentin gets a minivan of his own literally minutes before finding out where Margo is. I doubt his parents would have lend him their car and RHAPAW would have been too small (and unreliable) for the road trip.

And now we come to what in my opinion is a pretty big plothole:
On page 151 Quintin searches for the phrase "paper towns" on the Omnictionary and only finds the entry by skunkbutt. On page 234/235 he used the add-on Radar made and finds the page for Agloe. But the page for Agloe literally contains the phrase "paper towns". And on page 236 it says the page hadn't been edited for almost a year, so the phrase was clearly on the Agloe page at page 151. Then why on earth didn't Quintin find out about Agloe on page 151?
Now I know Wikipedia (which I assume is much like the Omnictionary) usually takes you to the page directly. But it has 2 buttons (if you use the main page), namely "go" and "search". "go" takes you to a page directly (if there is one) and "search" gives a list of (partial) matches. I find it hard to believe that someone who is friends with someone like Radar doesn't know he should use the search function (especially if you get directed to such a crappy page as the one by skunkbutt).

Now you might be saying I'm just being an antfucker, but to me this is a pretty big plothole. I doubt I'm the first to say this to you, but I would like to know what you have to say about this.

- Tobias

 
At December 29, 2008 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't know if anyone has noticed this already but...

I was scanning through Wikipedia today and found an article on Fictitious entries, which proceeded to explain that a 'Mountweazel' (Myrna Mountweazel is of course the name of Margo's dog)is essentially an off-the-beaten-literary-track synonym (of sorts) for a fictitious entry, such as one found in a reference book such as an encyclopedia. essentially, this is another form of copywrite trap, like the fictitious town of Agloe. the way this fits together with the rest of the book is simply amazing.

I just read Paper towns a couple days ago (gotta love gifts that are books)and loved it. I if John planted this in his books so someone could find it?

anyway, another interesting sidenote. of course, if this has already been explained, sorry :)

 
At December 29, 2008 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

wow. nice work, dido, who ever you are. that's pretty impressive :)

beautifully written comment, too.

 
At December 29, 2008 , Blogger Candy said...

Good God, John.

I am 23 and a half years old, and it is times like these that I feel that I am simply not intelligent enough to read your books. (This is not a statement against teens, by the way, just a statement against all the people who seem to think I'm so smart or learned or whatever.) Despite this, they do affect me in a good and deep way that most other YA novels generally fail to do for me.

Of course, I am also no longer submerged in scholarship and these kinds of details and connections don't seem to stick in my mind. I still haven't figured out how I learn best. So really, I guess I am saying that teenagers, stuck in their English and other classes where they are being forced to think critically, are better able to read your book critically than I, an "adult", am able. So pooh on all those stodgy adults, their kids can probably read critically better than they. Pwned.

 
At December 31, 2008 , Blogger John Green said...

Tobias: In answer to your question, what I presumed is precisely what you say is unrealistic, that Q goes to the entry for paper towns rather than searching omnictionary for the phrase paper towns.

Q is in fact only briefly interested in the phrase as a phrase; we're more interested in it than he because we're reading a novel that says PAPER TOWNS in big letters on the cover.

That's my explanation; sorry if it seemed implausible to you. -John

 
At December 31, 2008 , Blogger Tobias said...

I can agree to your point of our focus being differently. But Quentin does get quite obsessed with "Paper Towns". And sure, he does get a bit sidetracked by the pseudovisions, but he doesn't find out about those until after he looks on the Omnictionary.

So I still think it is unplausible, especially because he has Radar as friend. But I can see your reasoning (I just don't entirely agree with you =P )

Thanks for responding.

- Tobias

 
At December 31, 2008 , Blogger John Green said...

He doesn't find out about pseudovisions from omnictionary, though; he finds out about them from a message board (at least as I recall).

Q and Ben both pretty consistently ignore Radar's interest in Omnictionary; I still don't buy that their proximity to him would make them adept at navigating the site.

But we can agree to disagree! :)

 
At December 31, 2008 , Blogger Tobias said...

ooh, yes, agreeing about disagreeing is a good thing (especially if you know you won't agree).

And yes, he finds the bit about the pseudovisions somewhere at the bottom of a thread on a forum (if you can be bothered to look there ,looking better on the Omnictionary doesn't sound too far-fetched =P)

Just a short question (which might have been answered before): why did you make up the "Omnictionary" instead of just using "Wikipedia"? I doubt copyright (or whatever) would have prohibited you from using it.

- Tobias

 
At January 02, 2009 , Blogger John Green said...

I called it omnictionary because it contains all of the relevant definitions.

And I think facility with google is very different from facility with wikipedia. (i.e., the problem is not Q's lack of dedication; the problem is Q's lack of familiarity with how user-created online encyclopedias work. Q is used to real encyclopedias, in which you look things up, as oppose to google, in which you search for things.)

 
At January 08, 2009 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

after reading this post it really made me want to put my analytical skills to work and my english class had just read the allegory of the cave, so this may be way overthinking things but i was curious...

When Q was talking to Lace about Margo and was thinking about how different Margo was in each person's eyes he said "[...] I thought of my Margo, and Lacey's Margo [...] and all of us looking at her reflection [...]" Was this an allusion to Plato's Allegory of the Cave? It seemed to me like an accurate comparison, as Plato used the word reflection to describe the shadows we saw and falsely thought to be The Truth and how Q had his image of Margo and thought it was the true Margo, on;y to be proven wrong when he trully saw her, just as when the prisoner fully saw the sun, the personification of what is Good and the Truth. I was just wondering if this was correct. If not, please don't think me silly for over reading!!!

 
At January 08, 2009 , Blogger face.in.book said...

This is why I'm angry that we study classics exclusively in my english classes. It's not as though there aren't other books that have lots of layers and opportunities to practice critical and analytical reading. Just yesterday my lit teacher was explaining why we don't read Harry Potter in english because while it has universal appeal, it isn't timeless (because it hasn't had the time!) so it can't be classified as a classic. I definitely accept that statement to be true, but she never explained exactly why it is that we would only be reading classics in the class. I certainly don't mean to say that I dislike classics because I do enjoy them. But I honestly didn't even think to read Paper Towns, or the other YA books I read, very critically. Even though I don't believe it, I'm sort of programed to read classics critically and not worry about doing it with other books. I assume a lack of depth, and that isn't fair. I don't know if I've made much sense there ( I honestly don't think that I did) but I'd better get back to writing my essay for A.P. European History. :( But I really wish I could read your book in my lit class too.

 

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